tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post6081977600373099499..comments2023-10-20T10:06:23.364-04:00Comments on Preaching Essentials- Lenny Luchetti: Projection or Presence: Weighing the Pros and Cons of Video Venue PreachingLenny Luchettihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-71820481289933967082018-03-12T06:55:59.804-04:002018-03-12T06:55:59.804-04:00I’ve always wondered about this topic myself. As ...I’ve always wondered about this topic myself. As this is an assignment regarding Christian proclamation I’ll try and keep my thoughts along those lines. <br /><br /> The concerns outweigh the positives in my opinion, because of the first con that Lenny brought up about incarnation. Jesus came to earth, that’s what it took for the gospel to be communicated. Jesus could not have simply sent a video to people for them to see his life and his teachings. The tangible elements of his person, his care, his ability to heal, his embracing of the little children, the way he would have handled himself amongst the Pharisees and the scribes, were essential to the gospel. I think part of the discussion around image magnification plays into this because some will hear preachers preaching via video stream and just eat it up, and magnify the person without even knowing them. In my opinion, the people who can preach the most effectively into my life are those that I trust and those whose character is known and not just know but it exemplary in my view. I fight the urge to lift up someone like a Matt Chandler and his words just because they touch me from far away. I want to prevent others from having this feeling and going the wrong direction in terms of lifting up a man too highly when they should be lifting up Christ highly.<br /> Cultivation is one thing that would also keep me from engaging with a video preaching practice because I so strongly want for all believers to engage with being the royal priesthood Peter talked about. If we put some up on a screen and have a “campus pastor” then we are saying that even these “pastors” aren’t able to preach and share, and therefore the people will ingest that they must not be able or have a need to be able to share their faith either. I would rather have many people sharing the pulpit, those who have a desire to do so, and even if they are rough they would be growing in the Lord, and a testimony to the body that anyone can share God’s word. Obviously they would need to be trained, and do it honorably, but we have such a clergy-layperson problem in the American church that I’d do just about anything to counter-act it. <br /> What a great discussion and how much fun you guys must have had over the years discussion this sort of stuff. It makes me jealous, for in the trenches it seems like all that is discussed are issues, and there are very few instances to discuss these sorts of things. It makes me wish that I had the time and life circumstances to attend seminary in person. Tyler Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-41179227424556777782014-08-10T21:00:03.203-04:002014-08-10T21:00:03.203-04:00reaching the unchurched requires changing their me...reaching the unchurched requires changing their mental picture of church...see the new book on this topic: "AMERICAN GOTHIC CHURCH: Changing the Way People See the Church." Available at Amazon and other online book retailers in softcover and ebook formats.Dr. Jeff Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16366450460577332527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-57885196097738662232014-08-08T13:21:16.256-04:002014-08-08T13:21:16.256-04:00Thanks gang for more helpful insights and inquirie...Thanks gang for more helpful insights and inquiries. Anonymous, you raise important questions about engaging our culture in mission. I still have a hunch that placing a preacher on the ground within a congregation is the best option for developing the congregation, community and the preacher. <br /><br />Dave, thanks for jumping in. I like the model you and your senior pastor are using. I like the team approach and conextualized preaching that can flow out of it.<br /><br />Ed, glad you added your wisdom to the dicussion. Perhaps the VV is a viable option, but one that we must carefully and prayerfully consider before launching simply becaus it is effective and efficient. Developing preachers, as far as I can tell, is not real efficient in the short run but fruitful in the long run. Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-28660429148860956192014-08-08T12:23:30.281-04:002014-08-08T12:23:30.281-04:00I was just with a campus pastor and projection pre... I was just with a campus pastor and projection preacher last week. As part of a a class on church multiplication, I wanted to explore this option and help students see the innerworkings of this type of work. I've always believed that the preacher is the best illustration, not their funny stories, antidotes or ideas. However, as I interviewed these two leaders, I was in awe of God and how he has worked in this situation.<br /><br />I don't think we can forget the o-so-key campus pastor. The campus pastor is in fact MORE present than most preachers, who end up spending 20 hours a week preparing for a 30 minute message... The projection preacher noted that this particular community didn't need another branded preacher, they needed a MRI (Missional, Relational, Incarnational) leader in their community. This approach was a beautiful picture of the Ephs. 5 fold ministry outlook. The teacher was able to teach, and the shepherd was able to shepherd.<br /><br />I am convinced, and research will inform you, that video venues will only be successful because of the onsite pastoral presence. They do not make it on the projected teaching alone. Contrary to popular opinion, more often than not, people are drawn to the venue option, not because of the video teaching, but because there is a heightened sense of contextualized mission and movement. Even in the venue I was in last week, the entire building was dedicated to missional outlets. It was clear, their goal was NOT to find another place to contain people, but to release them for mission and ministry in that particular community.<br /><br />I don't think we can dismiss the video venue so quickly or write it off as a the most recent trend (which God has used every trend, btw). We just need to understand it for what it is and allow it to be ONE of the many options to reach people for Jesus and engage community. VV are not for everyone or every church, but I think there are certain situations and dynamics where it is a legitimate option.<br /><br />I don't think I would do a VV or be a part of one, but let's praise God for this innovative approach! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-44203679271054227922014-08-08T11:54:45.693-04:002014-08-08T11:54:45.693-04:00I've always believed that the preacher is the ...I've always believed that the preacher is the best illustration... not their stories or ideas.Dr. Lovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-10416505012878003672014-08-08T07:36:44.877-04:002014-08-08T07:36:44.877-04:00Good morning bro. We launched a new campus 4 month...Good morning bro. We launched a new campus 4 months ago called TRU. It is not only a different name than the main campus, but we are not a video driven campus. I had been the Worship Pastor for the last several years, and through those years was feeling the call to preach and pastor. So what my Senior Pastor begin to do was groom me to become the Pastor of that campus. He begin to have me preach more, do a lot more pastoral care, and spend ample time with him in discipleship, and more leadership training. In my research I have found that even though some of your bigger metro areas are having success with video driven church, your normal small to mid size towns prefer a live preacher/pastor that is tangible. What we do at least 24 weeks out of the year is the Senior Pastor and I will preach the same messages/series, but I will take the content and make it work for the DNA of the campus I pastor, and He does the same for the main campus. This has been working really good, because both campuses are way different expressions. The main campus us more of a blended campus, 70 year old church, and the new campus, TRU, is filling up with primarily young families. So with all that said I think that there is a place for video church, I have a great friend who is a campus pastor for Life Church, and of course they do it well. But just because it is the trend it does not mean it will work for everyone, or in every place. Its like going to a Leadership conference and getting all kinds of great ideas for church growth that the successful churches are doing and thinking it will automatically work in your culture, most of the time it does not. The other things is that those listening to the projected preacher can never build a authentic relationship with him or her outside the teaching he or she does on Sunday mornings. To me it is vital to build that trust with the one who is actually preaching because what they say has so much influence on the person listening. Also Both of our campuses stay connected through weekly staff meetings, and 4 major events that both campuses do together each year. I do believe it is a very humbling thing for the Senior Pastor to raise up other preachers, and I am blessed to have a Pastor that is more interested in doing that than him being the only one. SO in turn that is what I will be doing as well as we look at launching more campuses in the future. Thanks for your blog bro it is really insightful. Blessings my friend.Dave Romeronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-6035166526251962062014-08-08T06:58:37.532-04:002014-08-08T06:58:37.532-04:00@lenny, It makes a little more sense. I agree tha...@lenny, It makes a little more sense. I agree that we need to be careful and not always chase the new shiny car. But I think we need to be careful when we are using what I will call the "slippery slope" analogy and we end up "off the cliff" when the potential probably won't even get that far. I don't think "video venues" is going to lead people "off the deep end". I think there could be ramifications, surely and I think that is what your getting at. We are seeing some of those ramifications with the "seeker sensitive" movement from the 80's and 90's. Even Hybels himself said that he wished he would have discipled more during that time. So YES, I agree we need to make sure our "method" is sound. That's why I have engaged in this forum. <br /><br />I guess something I would like to know is:<br />1. How will this affect discipleship negatively?<br />2. Will it hinder evangelism?<br />3. Will it hinder the Church from engaging it's culture?<br />4. Does it hinder the "meeting of the saints".<br /><br />These are the questions that I believe will hinder God's Church down the road. What would you add or subtract from this list?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-15269864173128651782014-08-07T22:18:47.603-04:002014-08-07T22:18:47.603-04:00The point I was making is that just because someth...The point I was making is that just because something "worked" doesn't necessarily mean that it should be employed. Other preachers were using rhetorical devices of the day that Paul didn't believe resonated with and actually contradicted the cross. I'm not saying everything that works is to be avoided. What i am suggesting is that pragmatism without careful theological reflection leads people and chruches of the deep end. Make sense?Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-8284349271891338042014-08-07T21:38:58.114-04:002014-08-07T21:38:58.114-04:00@lenny I'm not following your 1 Corinthians 2 ...@lenny I'm not following your 1 Corinthians 2 comment?!? He seems to be talking about "debate" and "fancy words". this would have been big to a Roman who valued "greek philosophy". I'm not sure how you are making the connection to using a video sermon to illustrate the same concept? One is a divice used to give the gospel and one is rhetoric. Can you explain more of how you think Paul would have not used every "device" known to reach the masses for the gospel?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-51527078694335314572014-08-07T16:58:05.382-04:002014-08-07T16:58:05.382-04:00Ha Mark...I knew that would come back to bite me:-...Ha Mark...I knew that would come back to bite me:-)Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-89675181211090314652014-08-07T15:19:40.092-04:002014-08-07T15:19:40.092-04:00Lenny, I offer those comments in the same attitude...Lenny, I offer those comments in the same attitude as you did when you responded to that paper I presented at the GSTS - I agree with just about everything you written - so for the sake of discussion here's a few thoughts. ;-)Mark Schnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00521939849864426818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-55640485560679552722014-08-07T14:57:26.552-04:002014-08-07T14:57:26.552-04:00Thanks Mark for adding your wisdom to the conversa...Thanks Mark for adding your wisdom to the conversation. I know you care deeply about preaching. You make some valid points. I especially appreciate you noting that the Holy Spirit can use something initially intended for one context (Paul's letter to 1st century Corinth)to inspire a very different context (21st century Americans). Good point. Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-59485020849770828152014-08-07T14:41:37.639-04:002014-08-07T14:41:37.639-04:00BTW, I sit in the actual sermon by Steve DeNeff no...BTW, I sit in the actual sermon by Steve DeNeff now, we sit up close. So I think he’s making actual eye contact me sometimes, not just looking at my section. I do like that, and it adds to the experience for me. Not sure the person in the back row feels any closer to him than if they were watching him on the video screen, though.Mark Schnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00521939849864426818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-63017182179256033542014-08-07T14:39:32.150-04:002014-08-07T14:39:32.150-04:00At this point I probably don’t have anything to ad...At this point I probably don’t have anything to add to this conversations, that’s what I get for being late. But then again, that won’t stop me from trying!<br /><br />First of all, let me say, Lenny that I love your writing and your heart for the ministry of the Word. Your thoughts on preaching are not only theoretically sound but have been tested through the fires of pastoral ministry. Those two together are a winner in my book!<br /><br />I don’t disagree with your pros or cons to video venue preaching but do have a few thoughts related to the degree of one of the cons you listed. <br /><br />Let me say though, I have to be honest that I have usually treated video venue preaching with an eye roll. You know, “Oh brother, here’s another preacher who loves the limelight and thinks no one else can do what he or she does!” My only experience with video venue stuff up till about a year ago was at conferences that were video linked, not the same thing as the local church. But when we moved to Marion, IN a year ago I started going to the service at College Wesleyan Church where we would hear and see Steve DeNeff preaching on the video screen. I was more than skeptical at first, but soon began to enjoy it. We sat around tables, got to interact with others in the service, and it wasn’t like sitting in a sardine can that the other service would have been – it was a homey type atmosphere and we enjoyed it. But (and this is a biggie here), it helped me knowing that Steve DeNeff was preaching that actual sermon about 75 yards from where I was sitting. The sermon might be delayed a few minutes but he was actually over there and I could talk to him after the service. CWC was doing the video venues for space issues, not personality ones. Steve shares his pulpit more often than I would have thought he did. Preaching is his strength obviously, but he is also about helping others to develop. And his video venue preaching was still contextual, there was still the possibility for pastoral care from him. But the church decided to stop doing the video venues, and I’m still not sure why they did. My point is, I thought the video venue thing worked there, and very well. It’s a different situation than what Lenny is talking about here probably, but in that setting I was all for it. <br /><br />For the degree of a con you listed:<br />You said, “God didn’t show up as a projection but as real presence. How can a Christian preacher do anything less?”<br />People have already mentioned this, especially mlbeck, but we have to take into account the work of the Holy Spirit in preaching. God does something mysterious and wonderful when the Word is proclaimed and I think that can happen in all kinds of ways. Here are a few instances where an incarnated pastor or preacher wasn’t present but the Spirit worked.<br />1. Paul sends a letter to a group of Christians far away from where he is. Someone in a group setting reads that letter to the group and the Spirit moves. Or the letter is passed around in a circuit and the Spirit moves. Paul isn’t physically present at all but the Spirit, the incarnate God, does the work that only God can do. <br />2. We read those letters a few millennia from when they were written and we are moved by the Spirit. Our context is completely different in a million ways, that letter wasn’t written directly even to our group, let alone personally. We’re only looking over the shoulder of the original person who read the letter. But the Spirit moves and we are transformed by the Word.<br />3. I think of the Jesus film. That thing was made, what, thirty years ago or something, but people are STILL being added the kingdom from its ministry. It’s even just an artistic take on the Jesus narrative, but the Spirit is doing that, not a person.<br /><br />I agree with what has been said by some others here, actual physical preaching is the ideal. I prefer that. Also, I agree that the important thing is that Word is being proclaimed, however that needs to happen. The Spirit takes situations that are less than ideal and uses them.Mark Schnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00521939849864426818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-76903719647113085842014-08-07T14:17:31.243-04:002014-08-07T14:17:31.243-04:00I agree about the money grab. It goes back to what...I agree about the money grab. It goes back to what I said about efficiency. Efficiency says let's do what is least costly...let's get the biggest bang for our buck. Someone brought up the Apostle Paul's use of technology...read 1 Cor 2:1-5. Paul refused to utilize the trendy rhetorical devices of the day, which could have won the masses to Christ, because he felt that the medium is the message. He wanted his style and content to be in alignment with the cross. For Paul, preaching the gospel was not efficient but costly- as expensive as life itself. Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-83920226571621842852014-08-07T13:32:01.348-04:002014-08-07T13:32:01.348-04:00People can watch a video sermon at home in their p...People can watch a video sermon at home in their pajamas. If a church does not care enough to have a pastor who shows up on Sunday mornings in the flesh, why should they.<br />Our church showed a video sermon for two Sundays. It was nice the first Sunday, but I skipped the second Sunday. Why? I want a live pastor.<br />Growing a church by throwing up a satellite location is lazy and irresponsible. If a church is going to plant a new location, plant a new location. Don't make it a video site. It comes across as a money grab.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-84700398156954833532014-08-07T13:15:43.299-04:002014-08-07T13:15:43.299-04:00Isn't it interesting that it is mostly "C...Isn't it interesting that it is mostly "Churched" people are the only ones debating this? If lost people will come and respond, who cares! If the person who likes a "live" preacher won't be there, but at the end of the day...they are going to go down the street anyways. The stats tell us that flocks and flocks of "unchurched" people are coming to the venues. <br /><br />Most unchurched people are looking for a dynamic speaker, cause that's what they are used to at schools, debates, and on TV (for the most part) at least from an entertainment standpoint. I understand that it isn't about "entertaining" but the speaking must be quality, and to be honest, most pastors can't hold your attention past the introduction. <br /><br />I also find myself asking the question. "What would Paul do with all this technology to advance the gospel?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-9480047883773744462014-08-07T13:01:58.684-04:002014-08-07T13:01:58.684-04:00Continuing the projection and presence conversatio...Continuing the projection and presence conversation with a response at https://joshcooper.squarespace.com/church/2014/8/6/presence-projection-video-venue-responseJosh and Jaclynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06758601619986184392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-27265706369612535572014-08-07T09:38:36.643-04:002014-08-07T09:38:36.643-04:00@lenny but in some ways are we not just "play...@lenny but in some ways are we not just "playing to the crowd". The word of god "cuts like a knife to the heart of the soul". It should be the "word of God" that transforms and changes us, not the "feeling" we get in the moment.<br /><br />I totally get what your saying to an extent, but in my opinion I think we are "overvaluing" that point. I think it's fair to say that we have all felt the Holy Spirit during a music time and the pastor gets up and he doesn't "kill" the moment. Just like I think the HS can move at a video venue and the campus pastor comes in and leads the alter call. It doesn't take away and in many ways ADDS. <br /><br />I know where you are going from a "preachers" stand point, but I have preached and been at the audience at both, and I didn't feel this way at all. In my opinion it was cool to see God work through everyone involved! It didn't take away. I think much of what we are talking about are "personal" preferences and what we are "used" to. <br /><br />As a wesleyan I'm sure you appreciate "experience" as way to validate! ;) And I do admit, that is what I'm going off of. I know someone else might be different, but I do think a lot of it has to do with the personality of the "receiver". but I have found if we are OPEN then the Holy Spirit has moved just as effectively and sometimes if not more!<br /><br />BlessingsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-24531473773209582342014-08-07T09:24:28.641-04:002014-08-07T09:24:28.641-04:00Thanks Anonymous. I appreciate your thoughts...rea...Thanks Anonymous. I appreciate your thoughts...really:-) We need to discuss this issue more than we currently do. It is a big deal. Regarding presence...the main thing for me is being in the worship space where the Spirit of God is hovering over the congregation with which I am present. I look into the eyes of the people to whom I preach and it shapes, to an extent, what I say and how I say it. I am with the people in the moment and something mysterious and beautiful flows out of that. I'm sure you'll agree that this is one of the cons of video venue preaching. The preacher is not in the moment in the room with the people. The preacher can't adjust on the fly to the cues given by the people. Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-25749428975399506282014-08-07T09:07:10.465-04:002014-08-07T09:07:10.465-04:00Also, the whole "video venues don't want ...Also, the whole "video venues don't want to get people together". I'm not following this one. EVERY video venue I know of has 200+ people. Maybe you are referrring to "online venue". You might have an argument there, but every video venue I know, value's the "coming together of the saints". The worship is live, the prayer is live, the fellowship is live, the preaching is live (just not there at that moment). So I don't know how we are going down a path of "video venues don't value fellowship". <br /><br />Blessings all, I have enjoyed the convo, I keep choosing to post as Anonymous, because it has allowed me to be honest without fearing of hurting someones feelings as I know of a lot of people in the Wesleyan movement. I say all of this in love an hopes it will add to the discussion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-56734090247199006092014-08-07T09:05:32.753-04:002014-08-07T09:05:32.753-04:00The con about no presence can be true, if there ar...The con about no presence can be true, if there are no feet on the floor. Most multi-site I know have staff that are involved in that location. So I ask you Lenny, is not Presence a reality if there is a staff pastor involved but not a regular speaker?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-10388992631838181652014-08-07T08:58:53.065-04:002014-08-07T08:58:53.065-04:00I think we must take the person into account as we...I think we must take the person into account as well. Let me define:<br /><br />Person who doesn't like video venue:<br />1. Thinks that they will not be able to relate if not live<br />2. Values the personal examples of someone they know<br />3. Usually wants to have a personal relationship with the one speaking.<br /><br />there is nothing wrong with this as all. I am not attacking this person, but I'm amazed to talk personally to people who have said "I could never go to a video venue" and then I have been with them and they go and they experience NOTHING like they imagined.. Example<br /><br />1. The person speaking usually and can be videoed to where it looks like he is actually there...Not 3D, but he looks 6 feet tall and looks as if he is actually on the stage.<br />2. A good speaker communicates effectively without having a personal relationship. They didn't need to know of the local pharmacy to make a point.<br />3. The purpose of a campus pastor is for the personal relationship. I think it's important that the speaker is a man of integrity and the people "know" him. But how many of us really "know" the pastor. Most find that if they are looking for the personal touch, you get involved in life groups and the campus pastor adds the "shepherding" piece.<br /><br />I"m not saying a live person is "bad" or "wrong", but I do think a lot of people who say "I would never" have never even gone to one! <br /><br />This is just my personal thoughts. No stats backing them up, just what I have observed going to church for 30 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-75537966907198865512014-08-07T08:30:01.761-04:002014-08-07T08:30:01.761-04:00Anonymous...
I'm with you. If the use of vid...Anonymous...<br /><br />I'm with you. If the use of video venue preaching brings more people to salvation, of course, let's do it! I've gone back to something I heard Craig Groeschel of LiveChurch.TV say: "My presence is unnecessary for the Spirit of God to work...without apology, I will do whatever it takes."<br /><br />Although, in your case I don't know if you can prove by any means that the use of live/recorded video of your preaching pastor has been the deciding factor in the salvation experiences in your campuses. What if an actual person in the room preached in your campuses - would less people have made decisions to follow Jesus? What if more would have if the venue pastors were preaching? It could be possible than that video venues are actually impeding the Gospel in your campuses. How can you tell one way or the other? <br /><br />And, also, let us continue to debate. Debate can and does shape theology and practice, resulting in a more effective minister and church, and in turn the advance of the Gospel. mlbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01955151240985921725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3246769289463858102.post-80080540042790262622014-08-07T08:26:02.083-04:002014-08-07T08:26:02.083-04:00Good thoughts gang. I love the discussion. Anonymo...Good thoughts gang. I love the discussion. Anonymous, of course we want to reach people. I pastored a church whose primary growth was by way of conversion. We saw hundreds of people come to faith, get baptized and get on the discipleship road. I do think we need to have a "whatever it takes" attitude toward reaching people. However, what looks like a good thing for the church in the short-run, efficiency and effectiveness, might hurt the church in the longrun. Sometimes we launch into something because it's pragmatic only to discover down the road that it hurt the church. History bears this out (think cruades- efficient and effective in wiping out other religions and converting the masses- but bad for the church).<br />Lenny Luchettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08896001990363426239noreply@blogger.com